Curse

Alderman Sweet · Nov 13, 2005, 09:01 AM // 09:01

This whole thing is really about a player-driven economy and how bots take advantage of it. Anet's reason for not creating an inflexible, monolithic economy (the sort you have in single-player RPGs) is that such a system would not be fun . . . or exciting . . . or something. So instead they keep messing around with anti-bot remedies. This is like making a boat and drilling holes in it -- and then making modifications to the holes, hoping that your inferior holes will eventually become improved holes. I cannot understand why they don't get rid of the mutating economy. It adds nothing but chaos.

I stopped playing back in the summer because it was clear that the combination of a "trader" economy and obsidian armor would perpetuate the farming bot problem, as well as Anet's attempts to improve the holes in the boat, and that these improvements would always feed back into a flawed system. If the game is about skill and teamwork, with a level cap of 20 to encourage this approach, why on earth would you try to sustain so many absurd economic distractions? Beats me.

Ileania · Nov 13, 2005, 09:02 AM // 09:02

@ Phoenix Ex post
very true, like they said there is still some things to be fixed. Im just looking at this as a refreashing change in the game... I have 3 characters now and get bored every now and then, this should also make those in my 50+ guild that have no clue in PVP learn a bit from PVE. Weve been using practice GVGs but I find this to be a great way to get them prepared.

Blossom · Nov 13, 2005, 09:06 AM // 09:06

OK, lets say I completely support the update.I agree fully that this is how monsters should be reacting and yes this is great! But I have other issue. Farming. Now don't flame me cause maybe you don't do it for the same reason I do. I want to have all my chars having all the skills. And leveling up is rather slow proces if you're not a farmer. And second I'd like to have ecto armor on them some day. Are you really sure that things like that could be done without huge amounts of cash and exp? One more thing since I'm sure Arena will see this...

Have you considered making Crafters in some remote areas like FoW or UW or SF and have them Craft Weapons with bonuses, and weapon upgrades. But the level of item you can craft should depend on your exp. so if you have 500.000 you could make sword that is +15% <50% and have Sundering 7/10, but when you reach 600.000 you can craft 20%<50% or 15%>50% and 10/10. Look all the numbers are crap I just slapped them but the idea I think is right. You could have player unlock upgrades that he wants so he can't have them all but again he won't have them unlocked for PvP if he buys them.

That would make new players free to play and never be affraid that they will be dwarfed by old farmer McRourey.

Now do the flaming...

Ileania · Nov 13, 2005, 09:12 AM // 09:12

thats sounds like a decent idea only then ppl would be farming for XP for those items to sell to other players...unless its customized...
I too farm but for completly differant reasons, my guild uses farming as a way to improve teamwork instead of kill kill money kill drops kill.... although all of these are a plus it puts us all in one area calling targets and working together... so yes this does effect me in some part... but I feel it is for the better... this will make my guild stronger and we will be forced to think things through rather than KILL KILL KILL .... like some of my newer players have been trying... they havent nurfed nething just made it differant...

id0l · Nov 13, 2005, 09:17 AM // 09:17

I farm too. Wanna know why? Because it costs over a million gold (easily) to get fissure armor. Something you CANNOT, I repeat, CANNOT get without farming.

An no, I don't solo the UW. I could have, and could be very very rich by now, but dang, it's even more boring than farming Griffons.

Thank god I collected my final ectos one day before this patch came out (ectos are already 17k+ and going to go higher).

Memphis · Nov 13, 2005, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

The farmers. Let me say that I had finaly decided to get fissure armor. So, I started farming griffons. This is no longer as viable a process for income, and so my obsidian armor is once again a distant goal. Am I disappointed? Of course. Am I bitter at ANet for it? That depends on their next move, which I will come to in a moment. It is a team game, and it should not be possible to take down 30+ enemies of a higher level than yourself all at once, alone.

What I would dearly like to see ANet do next. (please keep in mind that this is what I wish to see, not what will happen or what may be best for the game)
Remove farming. Farming is based on time, and in a game of skill it has no place. WoW will provide you with all the farming you can possibly desire, and I would prefer if this game moved as far away from it as possible. This can be done by first removing the capability of monks to solo areas. The skills rend enchantments and lingering curse exist for a reason. Make use of them (and not with the laughably weak UW monsters) This would also increase the overall difficulty of areas, because of monsters that can remove enchantments.

(in relation to my part about bitterness towards ANet above.)
Increase the drop rate of ectoplasms and obsidian shards in underworld and fissure of woe, or remove items such as obsidian armor. Such armor is impossible to attain without extensive farming or through pure luck with a drop. Farming removed means that the only way to attain obsidian armor would be through pure luck with an item drop. Then you would have to find a player with a stockpile of gold from the "old days" and sell it to him or her. As time passes, fewer of these players will need or want any items, and so you will find obsidian armor literally beyond reach for everyone except the folks who have it already. With solo ability gone, players will either team up or not go down. Unless I am mistaken, the reduction of drops was because of the solo builds, correct? If you are removing them, then increase the drop rate back to what it was.

I am of the belief that this is a team-based game. Whether my team is myself and seven henchmen or myself and seven guild mates, the ability to solo monsters of the same level as yourself is not only detrimental to the game, it encourages farming and loot hoarding. With an increase in drop rates, but a block to farming, loot hoarders could still hoard, if they so chose, team players might actualy be able to find groups, and the game would become a much better thing than it is now.

-A. Banebow

Fantastic post.
If these indeed were the changes made (or at least made clear that these will be the changes to come), then I don't think there would be half the uproar we've had over this.

If farming has to go then so be it. But if the only means to aquire the more desired items in the game is removed, then another way has to be implemented. Sadly this has not been done and I fear that it won't be done any time soon.

15k and Fissure armour is there to keep people playing the PvE game. ANet must know that a great majority of players simply want to build up thier characters and aquire the best items for them. Aquisition is one of the most basic things that drives people and placing 15k and Fissure armour in the game is only going to make people want it. I always believed it was a play option to keep PvE'ers playing even after all missions and quests are done. Without it, those who don't like PvP would have nothing left to aquire and no real reason to amass play time anymore.

It's an element obviously added to attract people who would otherwise not bother with the game at all, past the missions and storyline at least, however it isn't supported well enough. It's been mentioned countless times that without solo farming nobody will amass the materials and 75k in cash for the stuff. Solo farming is consistantly nerfed with almost every recent update, however yet they still leave the base means there to do it.

Why is this though?

As you rightly mention, the lvl 18 Dying Nightmares in UnderWorld are a laughable addition to the mobs and a simple change to their numbers and level will instantly stop UW farmers dead in their tracks. Or better yet a dreaded cap on the number of people needed to enter UW. Job done and biscuits all round at Anet towers.

However it seems to me these Nightmares are only there to curb bots and people tearing through UW up to the smites and starting over. It could still easily be done (and can still be done) by any alert player who knew how to react to them, it just takes longer. This has to be intentional.
I mean, why not make the Dyings lvl 26 like everything else in there and simply have them flatten any solo monks that were previously killing them with a single hit of Zealots Fire?
Gaile says herself in plain text that UW never was and should not be a solo area. So why is it still? Now that's a question I'd really like ANet to anwser.

Not to mention that something as age old as UW farming and Henchman AI has been an issue since we can all remember, yet ANet choose to instead focus on this AI update of theirs as the solution.

It seems to me Anet can't really make their mind up what type of game they really want. I couldn't agree more that if they don't want solo play and farmers, then they should just get rid of it. They will also of course have to remove the incentives to do it and make items and armour more accessible to all players. Drops also will need a drastic increase.
However this hasn't happened because Anet know that UW farming is still possible. Maybe they even want farming possible so they don't lose all the PvE customers who do like amassing wealth and saving for their Fissure, as they know they'll make a beeline straight for another game.

What really grinds my gears thoughy is that they just don't seem to know what they are doing and keep shoving these nonsensical updates down our throats with no clear explanation as to why.
Farming is possible. UW is still possible and after numerous farming nerfs, we're still doing it. It CAN be stopped in any number of ways (vary the mobs, limit the party size, make it so more than 1 or 2 superior runes cannot stack - I mean come off it, what else do you want your health at 55 points for?) yet none of this has even been attempted yet. This is a company that made a game with hundreds of balanced skills, varied missons, hundreds of quests, endless dialogue and some of the best visuals in this genre of game. I think they can stop a player killing Aatxes if they really wanted to.

I'm moving away from my rant regarding the update specifically for now (sigh of relief heard

), but I'd now, if possible, like to focus on the following and more specific question... If we're not meant to farm, why can we still do it?

Sooner or later Anet are going to have to come clean about what game they want and pick a direction and stick to it. In the meantime stop all of the on-a-whim nerfing and balance altering to make farming harder, yet still make it possible so maybe people won't flee like rats from a sinking ship.
The constant changes to what we know and love are just getting too much for some of us for a game that many claim to not even be an MMORPG.
Yes the game is meant to 'evolve' and the updates do help with that, but there's also a substantial amount of mind changing as to what we can and cannot do with nothing ever really set in stone.

So if they want an Online RPG that people play for months on end ala WoW, then it will NEED the incentives. It will need 15k, Fissure and it will need the grind of farming to get these items to keep people interested. However this needs to be a reasonable and achievable goal and the current drop system for a party of 8 people just doesn't cater for it.

I don't think it's even occurred to ANet that maybe a reason people are getting so infuriated and stressed with their updates is that they're simply failing to make it clear what kind of game this is going to be in the future and if we're really safe devoting our time and money to it.

Antc · Nov 13, 2005, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by id0l

I farm too. Wanna know why? Because it costs over a million gold (easily) to get fissure armor. Something you CANNOT, I repeat, CANNOT get without farming.

Oh c'mon id0l, theres always another way to get fissure armour....u just have to go to UW to get ecto, with a 1 in 4 chance of getting one drop u only have to make a maximum of 420 UW runs, then u just go off to FoW and do the same...then just take the ecto and shards along with yr 60k....oh no wait...how are we supposed to get 60k now farming is nerfed???

lol

Phoenix Ex · Nov 13, 2005, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Unfortunately...this update really came at the wrong time. After a large majority of average players starts to turn to farming for fow armor and the likes because of the drop nerfs, after a large amount of hardcore players spent a fortune for a specific class/skill set. And after so many updates that coinincidentally nerfs most of the skills required for UW soloing, despite its original intention of pvp balance. All these combined are not going to create many forgiving players that thinks that this update is actually for new challenges. If anet is smart skill rebalanced and economy fixes needs to come QUICK before all the players still 50/50 about this patch leaves.

Ellix Cantero · Nov 13, 2005, 09:27 AM // 09:27

If you guys want anet to take you seriously you should probably stop trying to justify farming and try to find ways the updates affected normal PvE.

Memphis · Nov 13, 2005, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

Nicely said. Calm, polite, and suggestive. I give you... a chocolate chip cookie.

But yet what does he get for his trouble from you? Spam.

This is not intended as a flame in any way so please don't take it as such but yes, sometimes the only way to actually get a reaction from people and find out what others really do think, is to mouth off a bit and make yourself heard. His post was nothing short of stellar and you didn't even extend the coutesy of saying if you even agree with him or not.

Phoenix Ex · Nov 13, 2005, 09:37 AM // 09:37

In my opinions, there are two types of farmers. One is the ones who farm then quickly sell off whatever they don't need at a reasonable price. These types of farmer help new players get gears easier. Then there are those who farm then hoard all the rare items and sell for extremely high prices. These are what drives the price up. Unfortunately, with drops nerfed so much, more and more farmers changes to the "extreme greed" mode and all the non-trader stuff are inflating because of that. That's why drops need to improve quick!

Yamat · Nov 13, 2005, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

And YOUR little mistake is to look exclusively on the money market when making that statement. Which is why I think it's clueless. Hint: There is a goods market in GW, too (actually, more than one). Another hint: Farmers do increase supply with that they do. An increase in supply means that prices are going DOWN and not up.

Some evidence: The Ecto price DOUBLED since Anet was halfway successful in making UW soloing less effective than it was before. The SHARD prices remained almost constant. Funny, isn't it.

Nope. Farming drives up the demand side (prices would go up) and increases the SUPPLY side as well (prices would go down). You have to look at BOTH effects to judge in the impact on the economy. The total effect of farming on prices is somewhat neutral, probably. At least economics is way more complicated then your oversimplified post would indicate.

This is so, so wrong. Farming does not drive up demand. That's like saying if I build a million Ferraris more people will buy them. And the goods market is nothing in comparison to the amount of gold coming into to the economy. That's why gold is sold on eBay, not items. In other games you usually get the items being sold on eBay as well...

Case in point, if an invinci-monk goes on a smites run, he may bring back 1-2 ectos... may... and may bring back one item that he will sell to another player, again 'may'. He will definitely make 2k-5k in gold though.

When did ecto double in price? After the last invinci-monk nerf (change to prot bond) the price rose, fell, then settled at 11k. Before that it had risen to 17k. Shards weren't as drammatic, but went to 7k then came back down to 3.5k, but they're easier to get since they drop frequently in FoW.

Items do not drive an economy... buying power does. That's why the most fundamental way to affect inflation in the real world is to mess with interest rates, because it alters a persons buying power.

FeuerFrei · Nov 13, 2005, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellix Cantero

If you guys want anet to take you seriously you should probably stop trying to justify farming and try to find ways the updates affected normal PvE.

i agree

Memphis · Nov 13, 2005, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellix Cantero

If you guys want anet to take you seriously you should probably stop trying to justify farming and try to find ways the updates affected normal PvE.

Due to Fissure armour and it's ridiculous cost for purchase, farming IS part of normal PvE.

Yamat · Nov 13, 2005, 09:51 AM // 09:51

But you don't need Fissure armor... it's there for hardcore gamers, and for the hardcore gamer, getting the money for it is not a big deal.

Memphis · Nov 13, 2005, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

But you don't need Fissure armor... it's there for hardcore gamers, and for the hardcore gamer, getting the money for it is not a big deal.

Now you're telling me what kind of gamer I am too :E

I like to think I'm a dedicated GW player (for PvE at least), however I don't consider myself at all to be 'hardcore'.
I've played with my guildmates since beta. I now have 2 accounts, 8 characters (although one's about to be killed off for that necesarry pvp slot

) 6 of those with at least one set of the 15k armour that I like, green weapons or max weapons with the necessary damage modifiers, all runes unlocked, almost all skills for every profession and every mission in the game completed.

Fissure is practically all I have left to do and farming the gear and helping and playing with guildies (who some have become friends to me, not just guild members) is what's keeping me on until the expansion surfaces. I want to keep playing. I want to get my fissure armour. What's so not normal about that?

Fissure has been part of the game since forever now and it's perfectly viable for a new player to log on, see it and want it from day one. They may choose to gear their entire game towards it but it's their choice to do so.

In the words of Kuato: Open your mind....

Lugosi · Nov 13, 2005, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Ex

In my opinions, there are two types of farmers. One is the ones who farm then quickly sell off whatever they don't need at a reasonable price. These types of farmer help new players get gears easier. Then there are those who farm then hoard all the rare items and sell for extremely high prices. These are what drives the price up. Unfortunately, with drops nerfed so much, more and more farmers changes to the "extreme greed" mode and all the non-trader stuff are inflating because of that. That's why drops need to improve quick!

I'd like to add that then there are also those who do some occasional "semi-farming" in groups of two or three because they heard that armors with runes drop in a certain area, Or those who go into an area with as few henchmen as necessary, exploring "still cloudy" areas on the map, hoping that way they'll get some better drops than in a full team and getting some still needed skillpoints (whereby I don't know if that would fall into the category "farming")

Being mainly (not only) a PvE-player myself, who by now has played three characters through the game (without taking advantage of the nowadays so popular "runs") I still haven't found all the runes that I'd like to have for my characters. I didn't get anything higher than for example a minor healing rune for my healing monk yet, not anything higher than minor divine favor, I found *one whole* superior rune for my necromancer and also *one whole* superior rune for my warrior. What dropped like crazy for me though were mostly ranger-runes. So yes, even though I don't have a primary ranger I probably have most of the ranger-runes unlocked while the ones that I would actually find useful are still to be found by me.

The sad thing is, that even if I bought these runes from the runetrader (which I already did, due to the lack of them dropping) they aren't unlocked for PvP. So what options do I have, as a PvE-player, to unlock my missing runes...

a) buying unidentified runes for horrendous prices (to eventually find out that the purchased rune, once identified, wasn't the one I wanted)
This seems to be a big market for farmers though, due to the problems of many people to actually find the runes that they'd need/want on their own.

b) hoping that ANet improves the drops of runes significantly
If after the recent patches drops did indeed improve I hope that also goes for runes

c) jumping over my own shadow and becoming heavily involved in PvP to be able to unlock the runes with faction - which still wouldn't give me for example a real Superior Vigor (that I also never found but would like to apply to pretty much each of my characters).

So here's just an idea:
Looking back at (now don't moan please) Diablo 2 I remember there was always somebody who would sell unidentified things to the players. Not for little money, but affordable with the money that one made during normal gameplay.

How about the implementation of something like this?
A trader that sells unidentified upgrades and runes, not stating what the item will be once you identify it. Unidentified bowgrips, unidentified hammerhafts, unidentified runes (sorted by professions and by level). Since the Vigor isn't for a specific profession it would have to be camouflaged, means: If you buy a rune for a certain profession it could still turn out to be a vigor in the end.

In my opinion this would be just one more step towards eliminating any kind of farming for profit, and would also raise the chances of players to finally get the runes they need.

Edit: This was mainly to show that there are different approaches to make farming and farmers unnecessary. It still wouldn't address ecto/shard/<enter favorite rare crafting material> drops/prices, but it would be a start.

nimloth32 · Nov 13, 2005, 10:26 AM // 10:26

ok, my final word on the update. I give a situation like this:

I went for 'villiany of galrath', a quest. When the enemy attacks, we managed to hold off the enemy well (the enemy is tengu, which do terrible dmg to me (i am a healer by the way)) with the warrior tank in front and elementalist, monk (me), and necro stand at the back casting spell. Then, when the elementalist start to cast AoE spell, everything went hazard. The tengu scattered and most of them swarm the elementalist, necro and me. Imagine me, a monk vs 3 tengu. I think u guys should probably know the rest.

Well, as gaile states, there are going to be a number of positive update. Lets looks forward to it then. Cheers.

Tactical-Dillusions · Nov 13, 2005, 10:34 AM // 10:34

I'm starting to feel a bit worried.

What tweaks can we expect to see in the future?

Casters not casting when backfire is used on them?
Enemies stop attacking when empathy is cast on them?
Monsters going AROUND traps to avoid them?
Enemies not using skills when hit by diversion?
Monks ALWAYS being the primary target in PvE...just like in PvP?
The last monster running a marathon around the desert because he wants to drag it out as long as possible...hoping that we get bored?
All monsters carrying a res signet? OMFG!

I remember when Gaile voiced support for farming. Why the policy change?

Fantus · Nov 13, 2005, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

This is so, so wrong. Farming does not drive up demand. That's like saying if I build a million Ferraris more people will buy them.

HAHAHAHAHA

BUILDING Ferraris is altering the SUPPLY side, not the demand side...

If every people had one million dollars in their bank, DEMAND for Ferraris DEFINITELY would go up.

People usually farm because they want to BUY stuff. Which OF COURSE means that the DEMAND will GO UP. Farming ALSO means that ITEMS and MATERIALS are brought into the economy meaning that the SUPPLY side will GO UP as well - thus NEGATING the negative effect the increased influx of money otherwise would have on the economy.

Do I really have to quote basic literature on economics to make you actually believe things that you learn in the first 5 minutes when studying economics?